Whippin’ post

Hey, what did you expect? If today were a “Friends” episode, it would be titled, “The One Where We Tortured People and Lied About It.” But it’s day six of Zappadan 2014, and Charles P. Pierce is all the friend you’re ever gonna need for the bird’s-eye lowdown on this torture caper.

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16 Responses to “Whippin’ post”

  1. Pat O'Brien Says:

    Good song pick for the day!

    Here is the official link to the report. I noted the reliance on contractors in the program. Kinda like Wallyworld having illegal immigrants working on the cleaning crews in their stores. Wally world managers say “hey, it’s a subcontractor hiring those folks not us.” Also loved the part where W gave a speech to the UN on how we don’t torture people which prompted the perps to tell their bosses, “we better get this program authorized again after that speech.” Oy!

    http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf

    • Patrick O'Grady Says:

      Make me wanna holler, throw up both my hands (to quote another artist). I don’t think this is what the old man had in mind when he joined the Army Air Corps after Pearl Harbor.

      • khal spencer Says:

        My Uncle Ralph got back from the Far East, where he was an aide to Lt. Gen. Raymond Wheeler, and enrolled in college. He wrote a paper which was sort of prescient, i.e., he asked whether the Nuremburg Trials were entirely fair, given it was the victors in judgement over the vanquished. Then, like now, we dance around the issues of our own culpability in war crimes, but as the victors, who tries us?

        Wasn’t it Curtis LeMay, the AAF general who designed the firebombing raids on Japan, who supposedly said that if we had lost the war, he fully expected to be tried as a war criminal by the Japanese? Hell, that was exactly Hermann Goering’s defense.

  2. Larry T. Says:

    Same s__t, different day. “War criminals” are always the “other guys” while ours are called “patriots”, just like Dick-less Cheney said.

  3. Pat O'Brien Says:

    Spying, assassination, torture, and wholesale surveillance are necessary in our war on terror. What bullshit.
    Anyway, all this hubbub will die down in 48 hours or so and the public will go back to sleep. You know what Heather says!

    • Patrick O'Grady Says:

      Damn straight! There’s Chris’mus shopping to do! D’ye think Sharper Image sell consciences? Whom would Jesus torture?

      • khal spencer Says:

        Funny. We could have lost WW II. I don’t recall us torturing, but as mentioned above, we did far worse things to those other people, if you consider deliberately turning whole cities into human bar-b-ques a war crime . But not to POWs. Seems we really crossed a line here. A nation of cowards is not a good thing.

      • Patrick O'Grady Says:

        Never having served, I’m probably ill-equipped to address the morality of war.

        I can understand how some might find a faint justification for brutal acts against civilian populations. These civilians support the war effort, they know what their leaders and soldiers are doing, so they have it coming, or so I imagine the reasoning proceeding. I believe I’ve read that modern terrorists justify their actions against civilians using similar logic.

        But to brutalize a prisoner who is utterly in your power strikes me as beyond the pale. He can’t fight back, can’t flee, and likely can’t even commit suicide to escape his tormentors.

        I remember reading accounts of the Nazi and Japanese atrocities as a child, watching films like “Night and Fog,” and thinking Americans could never sink to such depravity. So much for exceptionalism, hey?

      • Steve O Says:

        I’ll never understand our political schizophrenia. You have to remove 3/4 of your brain if you want to toe a party line. Just too many contradictions on both, or all, sides.

        But the biggest thing I’ll never understand is why so many people eschew efficiency in the name of ideological purity. Fiscal conservatives will espouse programs that are shown to cost more over time, because of some ridiculous principle. Liberals will push for programs that don’t solve the problem, because the program itself becomes a living and breathing thing that must be maintained.

        And that’s where I fall on the torture thing. The argument over morality is important, needs to happen, but won’t be resolved any time soon. But the argument over efficiency is an easy one: it just didn’t, and doesn’t, work. It produced more noise than signal, and it created armies of folks who only doubled-down on their hatred of us.

      • Larry T. Says:

        I think if you dig deep enough through the revisionist BS written after pretty much any war in history you’ll find it a) could likely have been avoided b) didn’t really change that much in the end. But guys like Dick-less Cheney get rich off these adventures or they detract from the bad s__t that’s really going on, (key up Putin’s current adventure in Ukraine) so of course they’re all for ’em, especially when they can get out of ever coming in harm’s way. Didn’t Dick-less come up with some crap about having “other priorities” as an excuse for his many draft dodging tricks back-in-the-day? Then of course we have Dubya, keeping (sometimes) the skies above Texas safe from the Commies. These a-holes would wet their diapers at just the thought of being waterboarded!

      • Pat O'Brien Says:

        Well said Steve! And a doubling of hatred is exactly what happened, and is still happening.

      • Pat O'Brien Says:

        Patrick you are right. That exceptionalism bullshit always chafes my butt. The best way to make friends is to walk into a room and say I am the greatest human being on earth and am the example you all should strive for.

      • Steve O Says:

        Exceptional ism. We’re 51st in infant mortality. Right after Croatia. Apparently in this country, pro-life doesnt actually include the living.

    • Steve O Says:

      War on Terror™ will surely win some sort of Orwellian doublespeak award, given sufficient distant in the rear view mirror.

      We act like AQ and OBL invented terror. Geez, what were Fat Boy and Little Man? 9/11 changed nothing, for anyone who’s ever cracked open a history book, and it changed everything for those who have not.

      • khal spencer Says:

        I made the point in a local paper that if one wanted to look at terror, one has to look no farther than the mass bombing raids of WW II. If you want a good read, try “Among the Dead Cities: The History and Moral Legacy of the WW II Bombing of Civilians in Germany and Japan”, by A.C. Grayling.

        I think if you look at Sherman, Lee, LeMay, or any number of military leaders, there is agreement that war is immoral and meanwhile, kill as many of the bastards as you can, by any means necessary, until they give up. That said, O’G nailed it: once someone is a prisoner, the gloves go back on.

  4. bromasi Says:

    If you want to read about torture check out Laura Hillenbrands book
    “unbroken” it’s about Louis Zamperini.

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